I wanted to specifically address the issue of whether knowledge and interaction with women bring unique insights and wisdom. I will work off of some posts Novaseeker has made at three blogs on the subject.
From Chuck’s blog
I agree that throwing out women wholesale is not the best approach. I do think there are some people in the MRA-sphere who are inexperienced with women and so on. However, many of us are NOT inexperienced with women, have been married to women, fathered children with women and so on. To paint all of us with one brush (and I know you had a tiny disclaimer in there in a wall of text) is dumb. Inaccurate and dumb.
Agree completely. My only question to Nova, (a wise, well read, excellent writer and thinker and really smart guy, someone who I suspect has more wisdom than I do I might add) is does he think he gained wisdom and valuable insight from being married?
One more question…
If all MRAs had little or no personal experience with women would their collective wisdom be greater or smaller?
I think its obvious. Men like Welmer, Nova, and Elusive Wapiti bring more wisdom to the table with regard to mens issues not less. Sure I can speak to marriage and divorce, but not with the insights and authority they can. After all, I’ve never been married or divorced.
But the more important problem with your post is that it equates knowledge of relating to women with “wisdom”. That’s inane. Yes, knowledge of interacting with women is nice to have if you want to interact with women, as most of us do. But does it make us wise? Gosh, that’s one of the silliest things I’ve ever read. Wisdom follows from many things, but understanding how women work and how to relate to them is not one of them.
First I’ll state that many experiences in life bring wisdom. Especially endeavors that test virtue and resolve or require hard work and discipline. Let me use a few examples. Lets take two typical 30-year-old guys. Identical in every way. IQ, values, upbringing, physical attributes, job, education…blah blah blah…except for one thing. One guy served 2 tours in a war zone and the other guy has zero military experience. Who would probably possess more wisdom?
How about the same two guys, but one of them had successfully battled cancer?
How bout the same two guys but one has 10 friends and the other has 0?
How about if one of them is married and has 2 children?
The last example is what I am getting at. I submit that everything being equal, the married with kids guy is probably going to have more wisdom than the single guy. I say this as a single guy myself. Living with another human being, and all it entails, bring valuable insights. Children within marriage, (necessitates interaction and some understanding of women) bring wisdom.
How bout the same two guys, but one of them has had 5 girlfriends and the other has had zero?
I believe, again, everything equal, the guy with 5 girlfriends is going to probably have more wisdom. Relationships, great or terrible, provide keen insights into human interaction. I know I’ve learned from them. I learned a lot about myself. Both my good and bad qualities were more easily recognized.
What I’m trying to get at is that HUMAN interaction, for most people, brings wisdom. I tend to think a car salesman would generally be more wise in the ways of the world than a guy who works the graveyard shift at a warehouse. The former, if he has any curiosity or self awareness,would be able to offer all sorts of tidbits and observations on the human condition which the latter probably couldn’t.
Human interaction doesn’t just bring knowledge, it can bring wisdom as well. I know some not so well educated types who possess much greater wisdom than the college educated ivory tower intellectuals wandering around. The former’s insights come from human interaction, not reading. (Reading can of course provide wisdom though.) I think this is obvious and I don’t see why interaction with women would be any different.
Luckily, all things aren’t equal. For instance, I have two married friends. One is incredibly insightful while the other is as dull as a rusty butter knife. Even though the latter has many experiences I can’t relate to, I consider myself wiser than he is. My other experiences, taken as a whole, trump his.
It is also possible to be wise in some areas and not others. I know a leftist like this. In matters of business and personal relationships he is dynamite. When talking politics he has all the insight of a 10-year-old girl. Trite wouldn’t even begin to describe it.
One of my best friends has very little experience with women. Giving him advice on the subject is, for the most part, futile. When it comes to the ladies, he sucks. That being said, he is one of the most stand up guys I have ever known. I’d go to the gates of hell for him. He is also really astute in other areas. He is deep and philosophical. I value his opinions. With women I have more wisdom, but on other things, he does. I also would say,on balance, he is more valuable to society than I am despite my advantage with women.
One last example. A friend of mine from years ago was solidly an alpha. Going out with him always meant getting stuck with the second best. In some cases, if he was feeling particularly greedy, the third best. Despite his ability with women( and his awareness of the reason for his success) he wasn’t all that profound in other areas. I had him beat. Another friend of ours, completely inexperienced with women, was Benjamin Franklin compared to him.
From my blog
Some fairly fine philosophers, theologians, scientific and artistic geniuses were celibates, or more or less celibate. The notion that “unless you’re getting laid, you’re a failure at everything else in life, and everything you say is worthless” is therefore beyond stupid — it doesn’t reflect historical reality. It’s dismissive and divisive and is precisely the kind of carping that we men of various strands need to avoid.
Agree on all counts. Particularly the last sentence. I have no desire to call out anyone’s chosen lifestyle.
From Ferdinand’s Blog
The idea that a man’s relative success (or lack thereof) with women is the fundamental measure of his manhood…
Well I guess in animal terms it could be argued that way. I don’t think, (or at least really hope not) humans are solely animals though. I would hope I have as much value as Silvio Berlusconi. Heh. Seriously though, I agree with him. I think integrity, honor, and decency are much more vital to being a man than how many pussies a guy has plundered. Ahh, if only integrity and honor made the gina tingle.
, or, even worse, the most important area of his life
In a perfect world I believe marriage and raising children would be the most important thing in most men’s lives. Again, I say this as a single guy with no kids. Even in that perfect world though there would be many single men who contribute mightily to society. In our far from perfect world, it would be a bad idea to blindly follow the marriage/children model. Conditions on the ground have changed and men should act accordingly.
If that means the pursuit of a wife or even a girlfriend isn’t the most important thing, fine by me. Plenty of ways to contribute to society, grow as a person, and live a contented life.
is precisely the kind of over-reaching extremism I criticized over at Chuck’s and at Gantt’s. I am a supporter of men learning Game, as you know, but sentiments like that one are just plain silly.
I’m not sure if he is addressing my position specifically, or ideas he has an issue with in general. If it’s the former I will just say that I sure don’t feel extreme.
To sum up…
Relationships and marriage generally bring wisdom.
There is more than one path to wisdom.
Marriage and children are vital for a strong and vibrant civilization.
Every man being married and having children is not vital for a strong and vibrant civilization.
A mans inherent value isn’t predicated on his ability with women.
Success with women, although I believe it usually brings wisdom, is morally neutral.
There is more than one path to being a decent man who lived a life worth living.
Obsidian, a thoughtful and effective Game advocate left this comment at Ferdinand’s yesterday. I thought I would respond because I disagree with him, both in tone and substance.
Now, before you or anyone else starts howling, lol, lemme also say, that I find the MRA cause to be legit-I just think that some of their tactics, of which bashing Game is one, is woefully offbase.
Too broad a brush. Most MRAs seem to be fine with Game. If I am right, then it is hardly one of “their” tactics. I have no problem if he wants to defend Game from the few MRAs (or anyone else for that matter) who attack it. I do agree that a few MRAs were offbase with regard to their criticism of Game.
If these guy are really serious about making structural changes, again I say they should be involved in the political process, lobbying their Senators and Congressmen, among other things.
Who says they aren’t? I have all sorts of passionate positions, but I’ll be honest, I don’t email congressmen. Why? Because its largely ineffective. MRA is in its infancy. Changing as many hearts and minds as possible is about the only effective strategy right now in my view. Politicians aren’t leaders, at best they are followers.
Now take Glenn Sacks-he’s an MRA that I got mad respect for. He doesn’t spend his time breaking on Playas-instead, he devotes his time to doing just what I said above-lobbying lawmakers, bringing awareness to MRA issues and getting facetime to make his case before a wider public. If all these “opponents” of Game and supposed champions of MRA, HBD and Western Civ are really serious, all they need do is look to Glenn Sacks-he’s shown them the way. They don’t even need to reinvent the wheel.
Agreed. Most MRAs would agree as well I suspect. I know I certainly like his style.
Now personally, I don’t see the MRA movement making any major legal/political headway anytime soon, and for many of the reasons you’ve written about Nova, among other bloggers.
Agreed. So what? I write and discuss all sorts of things that aren’t making headway. In many cases, causes I hold dear are becoming less realistic as time goes on. If anything, its fun to rag on feminists. Do you oppose Roissy when he does this?
Simply put-if you buy into Evo-Psych, and I do-Men are too inherently competitive to cohesive work together to bring about change ala the NOW mold. Not. Gonna. Happen. We’re just not wired that way.
Largely agree. NOW and other leftist ideas will crumble under their own weight if given enough time. To the extent that a mens rights movement can speed up the process, all the better. Should Glenn Sacks, a man just complimented, retire?
Which is why Game is in many ways the perfect solution, because it’s all individually focused. One doesn’t need expensive lobbying efforts or laws repealed and others passed-all one needs is the right material, a dedication to learn, and a desire to change.
Largely agree. Game is the micro to MRAs macro. Game is not a solution because their are no solutions. Game helps though.
Ahh, but you see, that’s the trick-alot of guys out there DO NOT wanna change ANYTHING about themselves. Game is really about growth and self improvement, and many Men are afraid of Change. And again, like Chuck Ross said, the Human Mind can and will concoct all kinds of stuff, all kinds of defences as to why one is a failure. As we all know, Women do this all the time. Now, it seems, so too, do the Menfolk.
Yes, some men don’t work enough at self improvement. Some are even bitter. Some blame women for their failures. Call 60 minutes. How this invalidates MRA efforts is beyond me.
I disagree with your view above-a Man who cannot get laid is a sad sight to behold, there’s simply no getting around that fact. Mind you, I’m not talking about the King of All Playas here-just being able to simply get laid with a decent looking chick every now and then. If a guy can’t make that happen, in my book, just about everything about him is seriously suspect.
This is nonsense. Just about EVERYTHING about him is suspect? I can think of plenty of guys I know, who almost certainly don’t get laid, who are good, decent men. A 60 year old guy that works at a gas station should be viewed with suspicion because he doesn’t get laid? Please. How bout a religious guy that sticks to his principles and avoids pre marital sex? How bout a guy in a wheelchair? Really, I love Game and I love Roissy, but man there is more to life than fucking.
Another thing. Men tend to gravitate to what they are good at. Naturals, or men who run Game with ease, will spend more time and effort trying to get laid.
At some point, for a guy that lacks the natural talents, both mentally and physically, Game and chasing women lose their luster when compared to other pursuits. Lets get real here. Some men, no matter how much they try will always suck with women. This fact doesn’t make them worthless human beings worthy of suspicion. They might just accomplish more than the guy out chasing tail all night too.
I gotta tell ya Nova, I’ve never seen so many sorry excuses for Men before in my life.
Exaggerate much? He could give me his best example of poor MRA behavior and I could counter with all the punks, thugs, criminals and vermin I see everyday in the news. I’d say they are more “sorry” than the most bitter MRA he could find.
I mean that. Guys who throw up every excuse under the Sun as to why they refuse to make any changes in their lives for the better, talking about all this abstract, big macro shit as if they gonna be able to solve it-Ha!
Self Improvement and “big macro shit” aren’t mutually exclusive. Also, men can be brilliant and insightful in one area and terrible in another. The latter doesn’t negate the former. If I think an MRA is bitter with regard to his personal dealings with women, fine. It won’t stop me from finding insight into other things he talks about. Everyone has their biases and weaknesses. By the way, solutions don’t exist. Only mitigations. I’m not dreaming of Utopia and most MRAs that I read aren’t either.
Not buying it one minute. I know the deal. These guys are more than merely afraid. They’re cowards.
I think Obsidian is emoting. I’m sure it feels good. Way to vague. Who are “these” guys?
Style, before he became such, had more balls, and is actually doing more to change the world, than the whole lot of these Keyboard Warriors, there I’ve said it, and I mean it. Because they can’t even change themselves to meet a nice looking lady for a night-how in the hell are they gonna “save” Western Civ? As we say in the hood, “Nigga, puh-leaaasseee…”
Game has plenty of “keyboard” warriors in their own right. This fact doesn’t delegitimize Game. Most MRAs are pretty aware of the long odds they face in “saving” Western Civ. I agree on Style making worthwhile contributions though. What this has to do with another man choosing to fight on another front, I have no idea.
So, no, Nova, with all due respect, and I embrace you as a brother, on this one we just gonna have to agree to disagree. All this stuff about MRA, and HBD, and Western Civ, and Conservative this, and Libertarian that, all of that jazz ain’t nothing but elaborate, High IQ smoke and mirrors covering up the simple fact that A, Game WORKS, B, that those who rail against it most don’t have it and C, they’re either too afraid or too angry/bitter or both, to actually try to change their own lives for the better. And I for one am sick and tired of listening to grownassed Men behave like low class Bitches.
Again, Game and MRA aren’t mutually exclusive. Perhaps I should provide a personal example. Obsidian, I get laid. I’m not G Manifesto or Roissy, but I do alright. It’s possible I’m even more successful than you. Who knows. I enjoy the company of women. I’m not bitter or angry(sometimes I should probably be more angry). I also consider myself a Conservative/ libertarian MRAer. I have no problem extolling the virtues of Game, using it, and pointed out injustice in our legal system and gynocentric cultural bias. I’ll also submit that learning Game should open a mans eyes even more to injustice and cultural decline not less.
Either you think Game and Mens Rights Advocacy are basically incompatible, or you are using a sledgehammer when a fly swatter would do.
You don’t know me, but I’ve been reading you now for close to a year. I often agree with you. I think you provide valuable insights and a good check on some of the things said around the Roissysphere. You seem like a truly decent and good man. Just want to let you know that I respect you. If you read this, I’d like to hear your response.