My Men’s Rights Journey

I can’t remember what the exact impetus was that led me to type “Repeal the 19th Amendment” into my search engine three years ago, but in doing so, I began a journey into the world of Men’s Rights and other related issues. I think the first website that came up was: Menarebetterthanwomen.com. 

I’m sure most who read here have happened upon it.   If you haven’t, lets just say that nuanced and intellectual wouldn’t be used to describe it.  At the time though, it was refreshing.  It was like playing Grand Theft Auto and  releasing pent up frustrations by running over, or shooting innocent by standers.   If the larger culture is dominated by feminist assumptions;  MABTW is balance on steroids.  No joke, word, or idea is taboo there.  Surprisingly, some of the commenter’s were actually pretty insightful. After perusing the unabashed misogyny for a bit, I moved on to more constructive and reasonable fare. 

I found sites like Glenn SacksChristian J’s, Pooks Mill, Angry Harry, Eternal Bachelor, No Ma’am, Marky Mark and the like.  Not long after, I found Hawaiian Libertarian, Elusive Wapiti, Novaseeker and a few others places I read to this day.  The timeline gets fuzzy with all of the clicking around that I did, but I believe Dave in Hawaii is the man who 1st brought me to the world of Roissy and other proponents of Game. 

Tangent:I had certainly heard about PUA philosophy before, but it never struck me as something beneficial to the larger culture. Early on, it wasn’t something I was looking for either.  I thought it only applied to men that were terrible with women.  Awkward, painfully shy, and passive guys.  Men invisible to most women, or who stick out like sore thumbs because of their obvious social ineptitude.  What did that have to do with me?  I had never been Casanova but I did alright.  At times I did quite better than alright.  I was never resentful or angry about a lack of female attention.

As you can see, I had a lot to learn.  Roissy and the likeminded tied it all together.  I admit that if Roissy had the politics of Noam Chomsky, I probably wouldn’t have been as receptive to his message.  That’s missing the point though.  Roissy wouldn’t be Roissy if he had a leftist persuasion. He ties evolutionary psychology, societal trends and the dark parts of female nature in with Game theory.  Think a dyed in the wool leftist could do that?

I don’t think you have to be of a conservative or libertarian persuasion to “run” Game and be successful with women.  Far from it. However, I think it would be damn near impossible to truly understand why it works so well and be a leftist.  Too many pretty lies to overcome. End Tangent.

Roissy led me to sites written by Welmer, Chuck Ross, Whiskey, Ricky Raw and Thursday among others.

Eventually I came upon Beta Revolution, Ferdinand Bardamu, Alpha Status, and Josh Xiong.  The pace in which I am finding new and insightful blogs seems to be accelerating.

I really like what I’m seeing, or more accurately, reading.   A lot of constructive ideas are being batted around, and I think there is still a good deal of debate.  I hope this trend continues.

I also want to comment on why I typed those infamous words into the search engine. 

I suspect that most men who come to men’s rights websites do so because of a traumatic injustice done to them by women (or the courts) in their personal lives.  In times past especially, it often took a catastrophic event to wake men up about the inherent unfairness they face in our culture today.  Divorce theft, adultery, custody “disputes”, and false rape or harassment charges are common occurrences that can lead men to MRA and related websites. 

This is certainly understandable.  Men, by and large, are completely clueless about female nature and will remain ignorant of it unless something horrible happens. The personal stories of men who have 1st hand experience with the burgeoning matriarchy are invaluable.  The passion that such injustices inspire make raising awareness possible.

My path was a bit different though.  I’ve never been divorced.  Don’t have children.  Never been accused of rape or harassment.  Never been passed over in promotion in favor of a less qualified woman. 

I have however, always been a conservative with libertarian leanings.  Even before I knew what those words meant.  “Jack Kemp” conservatism was about as close to left wing as I got.  I guess that was my version of being young and idealistic.  I thought my liberal teachers were naïve and foolish, even in middle school, and before I could really understand why.  This made my path to being aware of the struggles men face much easier. 

I was driven mainly by macro issues.  Listening to young women “discuss” political topics, and seeing the result of their voting patterns, planted the seeds into my head pretty early on. The general “girls rule, boys drool” attitude was also a factor.  Men portrayed as bozos on every commercial and television show became more apparent as time went on.  The “celebration” of every marginal or trivial “achievement” of “empowered” women grew tiresome.

I also remember the feelings of  disconnect between what I heard “victimized” women say, and my own life experiences.  I know this may surprise you, but I found it hard to believe that emergency rooms were over flowing with battered women on Super Bowl Sunday.

I had all of these feelings but no outlet for them.  Expressing even tepid reservations about what I was noticing seemed unwelcome.  Such observations were met with, at best, mild indifference and, at worst, major hostility.  Women were especially bad in this regard, but the men weren’t particularly stellar either.

Sure, my friends and I would talk about inequities and the like, but generally it was about micro relationship issues.  Most of my buddies were apolitical, or only mildly interested in politics, history and current events.  There wasn’t a lot of talk about the cultural marginalization of males and the consequences that arise from it.

What I was seeing was rarely confronted.  Especially before the Internet came of age.  The fact that so many feminist inspired shibboleths were ridiculous on their face, and still unchallenged, irritated me to no end. 

I was also aware that social ostracism wasn‘t the only consequence of speaking my mind.  In the college or work environment, much greater perils were possible.  Speaking my mind has always come pretty naturally to me.  In general I’ve always been pretty respectful about it. Even in my less refined and more passionate days.  The things I believe in can be especially provocative at a young age.  I was accustomed to heated and rigorous arguments.  The kind of folks I would debate, no matter their stand on a given issue, generally welcomed the verbal sparring. 

Feminism seemed to be off limits though.  Sure you could talk about it, but the price, at least at the time, seemed to be pretty high.  I knew instinctively that I could be viewed as a Neanderthal by liberal males, a whiner by older conservative men, or a “loser” that “hates” women by females of every political persuasion. 

Believe me, the “conservative” women, at least of my generation, aren’t much better than their liberal sisters.  In fact, in some ways, I respect the liberal chicks more.  At least they are consistent.

The fact that many of these issues were difficult to talk to fellow conservatives about, made it increasingly frustrating.  When its hard to find a like-minded person, who agrees with you 90% of the time on other issues, I’m sure you can imagine why.

I sure didn’t feel like an unreasonable and deranged misogynist.  I certainly wasn’t George Sodini, polishing my guns, and planning revenge on all the women who had wronged me.  I wasn’t a loser looking for a scapegoat for every problem in my life.  My positions at the time, were pretty moderate.  More moderate than they are now in fact.

I hadn’t even been “wronged”.  No life changing, traumatic event had woken me up and inspired a complete change in how I viewed women.  That’s not to say I had never had problems dealing with the modern day American female.  Pretty mild and common stuff though.  Nothing that could ruin or permanently change the course of my life.

I can’t remember the exact reason why I typed those immortal words into my search engine.  I suspect is was something to do with single women and their love for every entitlement program under the sun.  Perhaps it was the sparkle in their eyes when Bill Clinton graced a room. I dunno.  It was inevitable though.  I had noticed too much.  I finally needed an outlet for what I was thinking.  I needed positive feedback.  I wanted to know how many men were thinking the same things I was. 

Thank Gore for the Internet!  I’ve been reading ever since.  I’ve learned a lot, and refined my own thoughts quite a bit.  For over two and a half years I simply read, critiqued and formulated ideas.  Only two months ago was I inspired to start my own little blog. 

Is there anything to be taken from my own experience.  Well, yeah, I think so. 

Here are a few…

1.The ubiquitousness of female privilege in our society no longer requires men to be hit with the brick of divorce, child support, false allegation etc. to notice inequities, injustice and dangerous trends. 

2.I’m not special or unique.  I wasn’t wise beyond my years. I didn’t have some magical quality that allowed me to understand women better.  Quite simply, times are a changin.

3. Young conservative men are where it’s at.  I’ve heard arguments about how liberals( at least some of them) could be made to see the light on equality grounds or some such nonsense.  Sorry, don’t buy it.  People that don’t understand human nature in general, or male/female differences in particular, are hopeless. 

 Older conservative men are blinded by the shiny pedestal they have put women on.  Occasionally younger women, with attitudes like Ann Coulter or Christina Hoff Summers are to be found, and should be embraced when they are. 

Young men, of a conservative bent, are the ones most likely to be persuaded.  For one thing they don’t suffer from liberal guilt.  For another, they usually have thick skin.  Their natural inclinations against big government and special treatment make them natural allies. Young social conservatives that recognize trends not conducive to their religious beliefs, and an ability to see where feminized American churches are going, are also potential allies.

Side note:  I take great joy in the shaming of young conservatives/naive libertarians that don’t get it.  I think taking the Larry Austers of the world to the woodshed is probably a waste of time. Don’t discourage it though.  Taking Conor Frederdufus and Will Wilkerson to task is another matter.  I strongly encourage it.  This brings me to my last point.

4. Game makes Men’s Right’s cool.  It wasn’t necessary to bring me into the fold, but at the margins, I think it makes it more palatable for a lot of young guys that haven’t been royally screwed by women to accept.  Game is empowering and men have an aversion to victim status.  I don’t think it’s a coincidence, given my personal history, to have been inspired to write a blog only after Game had been introduced to me. 

Many apolitical men will seek out Game to improve their lot with women.  A Roissy like message, in one form or another, will help them see the light on an array of issues; not just ways to be more attractive to females. 

A movement made up, primarily of men screwed in divorce or family court, won’t gain enough traction in the larger male population.  By movement, I mostly mean an effort to help individual men see the light and react accordingly.  Sweeping legal and cultural change seems to me to be a pipe dream at this point.  My point about appealing to a broader base stands, whatever the goal is though.

Lastly, and to tie in with my side note, Game makes male shaming easier.  Put yourself in the place of your typical conservative leaning type of guy that doesn’t have a clue about male/female relations.  Would it sting a bit more to be taken to the woodshed by a  Roissy type, or by a 40-year-old Glenn Sacks type “bitching” about child support payments?  I love Sacks and all of his fellow travelers (like me) but I think we know the answer to the question.

I thought that telling the story of how I happened upon MRA and other related websites would be instructive.  I’m not sure how typical my path was, but I do believe that larger numbers of men around my age, give or take 10 years, will come to the same destination one way or another.

Advertisements

28 Comments

Filed under american women, female nature, feminism, Mens Issues, politics, pop culture

28 responses to “My Men’s Rights Journey

  1. Fidel

    Spot on ….

    I too, have never been burnt in a life-changing way, but have always felt that the picture just wasn’t right. For years I wondered if I was the only one seeing the hypocrisy around us….

    Oh, yes, I found the MRA while studying game. Roissy does blend the 2 together well, and I thought they were mutually incompatible.

    • Hi Fidel,

      Nice to hear a similar story. I think this blend has the potential to move alot more men along.

      I also think our stories, ones lacking a tramatic event with a woman or a court, will come to be more common around these parts as well.

  2. Heh…I don’t even remember the term I googled…but seeing my Ex-Aunty leave my Uncle and their 3 children for her bad boy, motorcycle thug of a boyfriend, and STILL get alimony even though she cheated, and did not even try for custody of the kids (she abandoned them to be with her boyfriend). I couldn’t believe such injustice was actually perpetuated by the legal system. So I began my research into it and came across “The Eternal Bachelor,” “No Ma’am” “Captain Zarmband” and “Fred X.”

    My oh my did I have my ‘eyes opened.’ From those sites, I eventually came across several now-defunct PUA sites.

    IT was after some serious studying into the “GAME” study of the PUA sites that I truly gained real understanding of the dynamics of my own relationships with women, and why my marriage was in the sad state it was in.

    I had already turned the corner and restored the balance and put my marriage on the right track before I ever did discover Roissy and logged on as “Dave from Hawaii.”

    I simply started to contribute to Roissy’s because I did in fact see a number of men that commented their that would constantly query Roissy about how “Game” would apply to the LTR/Marriage. I thought my own experiences could help other men out…and a few have told me it has. To that, I’m glad I have taken the time to write all that I did there.

    Roissy’s blog was the first time I came across this convergence of MRA/MGTOW/PUA topics, and he reading his archives gave me even more insight to the tools I gained from studying game in relation to my wife and THE REST OF THE WORLD.

    It’s not really reserved to dealing with my wife in my marriage. It has translated into every facet of social interaction. A whole new world of understanding. Reading social dynamics, understanding body language, and seeing how and why people behave the way they do in various situations. It truly has been a “red-pill” experience.

    Glad to see so many other men beginning to reject the blue pill of our Matriarchal Matrix and start taking the red pill and see the truth.

    • Hey Dave,
      Well I certainly wanted to give you direct or indirect credit for turning me on to roissy and related blogs.

      Reading about the injustices in our legal system and the way our culture has been feminized takes one only so far. Roissy and Game brought a new way of looking at the state we find ourselves in and offers more in the way of tangible solutions in the here and now for men to benefit from. The blending of mra, pua, mgtow and the like is promising to me.

      “It’s not really reserved to dealing with my wife in my marriage. It has translated into every facet of social interaction. A whole new world of understanding. Reading social dynamics, understanding body language, and seeing how and why people behave the way they do in various situations. It truly has been a “red-pill” experience.”

      Bingo. I read his entire blog archive in a few weeks and was surprised how much it changed my thinking and behavior in regard to micro issues.
      I thought back to previous relationships and cringed at some of the “beta” things I was guilty of. I also remember with fondness my unconscious forays into “alpha” territory and could now put in to words why it worked so well.

      I constantly assess social situations now with Game and its tenets in mind. My body language in particular has improved over the last year. Now it’s becoming second nature. This has helped in areas of my life that have nothing to do with women.

      In my mind you are the most important commenter at Roissys. I say that because you are a living, breathing and tangible example of how Game can be used in a constructive and ethical way.

      I think the benefits are obvious, married or not, and not just with regard to romantic relationships. Many ( especially the religious) need to see it used constructively and you are exhibit A.

      You have influenced my thinking on two things. One, you led me to Roissy and Game. Two, you have written passionately about diet and helped to influence my views on nutrition. Thanks for both.

      Funny how small the Internet makes the world. If you ever get to Denver, I owe you a beer.

    • slwerner

      “It’s not really reserved to dealing with my wife in my marriage. It has translated into every facet of social interaction. A whole new world of understanding. Reading social dynamics, understanding body language, and seeing how and why people behave the way they do in various situations. It truly has been a “red-pill” experience.”

      That has been my exact experience as well.

      I get the impression that some of those who complain most about “Game” [Todd White, etc.] are those that don’t seem to get that the first part of Game is self-improvement.

      To some extent, you simply must “feel” the part, to play the part. If you never get beyond “projecting” confidence, but never really having it, will only get one just so far.

      On the plus side, as I found out, even if one starts out just projecting that confidence, one still gets positive results, which will bolster real confidence. One that positive-feedback loop get rolling, the results can be quite remarkable.

      And, as you point out, this carries over into many other aspects of social interaction.

      Where other guy’s seemed to merely tolerate you hanging around, all of a sudden, their seeking you out to hang around with. And women notice too.

      I never wished to be a PUA sort, I was just looking to improve myself so as to hold on to my wifes admiration and affection.

      But, with just a few simply changes – most of which I got from men’s magazine’s like “Men’s Health” (not much information available via the Internet in the 1989 – 1991 time range, and even that magazine was relatively new) about how to look and act more confident, and how to “dress for success”, in about a years time, I went from the guy struggling to hang on to his own wife, to the guy who started to get “hit on” by other guy’s wives (not what I wanted at all – it just turned out that way).

      It wasn’t until many years later that I found out about sites like Roissy’s, and finally gained better insight into what I had experienced. I knew that my rival had made great strides in pursuing my wife by effectively and publicly humiliating me, so I was aware of the tactic, but never realized that such “methods” were openly discussed.

      I first heard the term “Game”, as applied to romantic/sexual dynamics in the 1995 Movie “Friday” – as an extension of the “black” term for ones innate abilities and finely honed skills for activities such as basketball.

      From that point of understanding, I have always considered “Game” to be those qualities a man posses, which will allow him to be more successful – be it in sports, in businesses, or with women – more so than being merely some bag of tricks he might employ towards those ends.

      This might be where the likes of George Sondini fail. They come to think of “Game” as those tricks, without understanding that the man using them MUST be able to sell himself as desirable to women – not an over-anxious “creepy” guy looking for a fast score with hot chicks outside his league. I think women pick up on the creepy perv persona every bit as well as the confident alpha(-like) one.

      Anyway, for those who still wish to see Game = tricks to get sex, you really have missed the boat.

      • Great insights slwerner,
        It’s always nice to see married guys talk about Game positively.
        The critics have a very narrow notion to what Game is.

        Certainly self improvement, in a variety of ways, is important, and in my opinion, the most important part of Game. How can critics possibly be against that? Like you say, all the “tricks” in the world will get you no where unless you can credibly market yourself.

  3. GG

    “Occasionally younger women, with attitudes like Ann Coulter or Christina Hoff Summers are to be found, and should be embraced when they are.”

    Thank you. Realize that neither of those women would let the whinier parts of MRA – or the darker parts of game – go unchecked. Both men and women of intellectual torpor appreciate fierce debate.

    • Agreed GG

      I certainly try not to lump all women together. In fact I’ve thought about occasionally writing about women I admire. I think it’s very important to make distinctions. Good women need to be embraced and not tossed aside, and looked at with suspicion.

      I try to be fair, but I’m sure I have, or will write something that can’t entirely be defended. I welcome being challenged when that happens.

      • GG

        Hey, thanks-a-bunch, Gant! Here’s a thought: probably only about 20-25% of the male and female population fits the promiscuious/cheater/opportunist categories (perhaps as much as 30-35%, if you consider also those who are “borderline”). That leaves at least two thirds of the population who are probably pretty decent people. Looked at that way, the challenge becomes: moving the sexes towards an honest appraisal of themselves and each other, whereby the extremes of madonna/whore (or feminist-careerist/welfare queen) and alpha thug/loser-victim stop taking up so much real estate in the minds of both sexes. Most people don’t occupy those extremes and know well enough to stay away from those who do (or should at least know better, and probably do but won’t own up to their choices, although sure there are exceptions). Most women aren’t feminists, and actually hate sluts, golddiggers and welfare queens because they make things more difficult for the more moderate, honest, self-respecting, and hard-working among us.

        No doubt, both sexes need to get real about what attracts the opposite sex. Game represents a step in the right direction for men because it’s probably the only movement in history that got men thinking about social skills. Having said that, it is frought with perils, because its success comes just as much from it’s effectiveness at weeding out decent self-respecting women, whilst attracting promiscuous approval junkies. Contrary to Novaseeker’s pessimistic prognostications, divorce reform and other FRA issues are gaining traction, but the more misogynistic elements of MRA (including the darker aspects of “game”) are the worst enemy of those urgent political causes.

  4. Talleyrand

    Funny you should mention the 19th amendment. I was with a bunch of older guys the other day and one of them had twisted an ankle.

    He made a crack “That he had put his foot down, and then it had gotten twisted when his wife made him take it back.”

    I said, “Dude, appeasement never works with dictators.”

    All the guys start laughing like that’s the funniest thing they’ve heard in a long time.

    Then one of the admits that he’s gotten into arguments about saying the 19th amendment should be repealed because it was at that point that the government started expanding and the national debt went through the roof.

    So I think that although most men won’t say it unless it feels safe, more and more know what’s wrong with the United States in their hearts, not just the young.

    • Hi Talleyrand,
      True, many older men know the score, but whispers with friends is about as far as their protests go. I don’t blame them, but I think younger men in the future won’t be as shy in voicing their displeasure. Constructively or otherwise.

      Your friend is right btw, with regard to government spending. I believe John Lott, of More Guns Less Crime fame, wrote an essay on it.

  5. A great post. Unlike you, I did get burned. But that’s not what started me on the MRA path.

    My folks splitting when I was twelve did that for me. Only getting to see my dad a couple of weeks out of the year, and seeing him powerless to affect how my mother acted around us and what she did and how irresponsible she was (plus how she squandered the “child support” on booze and things for her and my stepdad), left an indelible mark. So I’ve always been sensitive to the raw deal that dudes get in this society, and never really bought into the whole “men are privileged beings” nonsense.

    Apparently I was so strident in my opinions in college that I had more than one person remark to me that I must “hate” women. Even then critics of women’s behavior were silenced with shaming tactics, only the shamers were not only women but normal everyday guys as well. My peers. I figured I was just an outlier; I knew that some guys–mostly black men–were stepped on by our society, but the community of men at large figured that most of them brought it on themselves.

    Through all this I was a Republican with a capital R, all about beta values, family values, tradition, and big, strong, government. I was very much law and order, and even supported the death penalty, until my own wife suddenly, without warning, and without mercy split with my two kids nearly 7 years ago. It was at that time I saw first-hand the confluence between feminism and the State, and how each supported the other in a twisted symbiotic relationship.

    I became very libertarian on issues of governance very quickly after my PEW split with my kids and restricted my access to them with the aid and assistance of the State, because I have had the iron boot of the Man on my neck every day since.

    It was then, seven years ago, that I started perusing MRA sites, learning that there was this whole underground of guys quite dissatisfied with the whole shebang. But we were as easily dismissed as before as whiners who brought our own fates on ourselves through our misbehavior and on top of that were trying to shirk our responsibility to our kids by bucking chilimony.

    Thankfully, this is changing I think. No longer are MRAs just a bunch of divorced bitter guys. The truths that we bitched about 7 years ago have gone mainstream. As Gantt has mentioned, the Game-o-sphere has many intersections with the MRA world, and I think through this community MRAs have suddenly gained a sort of legitimacy and credibility they didn’t have before. Scales have been falling away from men’s (and some women’s) eyes about the women and “familiars” in our midst, their behaviors, and how the matriarchal state encourages and underwrites it all.

    It’s nice to finally be gaining some traction after all these years. Doubtless we have a long way to go, but a journey starts with a few first steps.

    • GG

      “No longer are MRAs just a bunch of divorced bitter guys. The truths that we bitched about 7 years ago have gone mainstream.”

      This is good to hear. Does this mean that you disagree with Novaseeker’s assessment that political activism (re: divorce reform) is hopeless? Do you think that there is a trajectory of change that has made tracks over the past seven years, and will continue to do so?

      • I don’t see it. Glenn has been out there for a while and while more men are coming on board (most of them are “divorced, bitter guys”), there isn’t any prospect of any progress at all on the legal issues. And to be honest, I do not think the legal approach, even if successful (and there is no indication of real progress in that regard), is a silver bullet. We now have culture of divorce, and a culture of female entitlement to favorable (relative to men) terms on divorce. Neither of those will be easily dislodged, and both will have to be, to some degree, to make any real progress on divorce reform.

        That’s why I agree with what Gantt has said here: the point of the “movement” is to raise awareness for men of all ages of the real issues we face. Not just divorce law, but the overall tilt in the culture that Gantt spends most of his article talking about, and which I believe, based on your other posts, you either don’t care much about, or consider to be “whining”.

      • ” Does this mean that you disagree with Novaseeker’s assessment that political activism (re: divorce reform) is hopeless?”

        No. We may not see the results, but that doesn’t mean that an effect isn’t happening.

        Thinking back to frosh chemistry, the wider culture is a buffering agent that absorbs our efforts until a certain concentration is reached. Our political activism intensifies the man-friendly concentration.

        Will it be enough, in sufficient time to turn things around? I don’t know. But I have a hard time with “riding it in” as we pilots say.

    • EW,

      Great comment. I appreciate the candor. I knew about some of it but some was new to me.

      A few thoughts..

      I became a bit more libertarian in my persuasion because of something that happened to me when I was 16 years old. A law “enforcement” issue. Nannyist to the max. It didn’t have anything to do with women, but I think it did have something to do with the way boys are marginlized by our culture. It’s worth its own post, but i’ll just say that at the time, I had a secret admiration for Johnny Cochran, and N.W.A. resonated quite a bit with this suburban white boy.

      Besides seeing the trivial iniquities and double standards in everyday life with regard to men and women, my contrarian nature helped me in finding MRA without the aid of a major catastrophe. I have always loathed political correctness and would almost instinctively go against the grain. I have tempered that disagreeable attitude, but at the time it came in handy.

      Men, especially when around other women, are very reluctant to speak ill of women. Many are pretty well indoctrinated themselves. I hold the most contempt for those types. Many learn soon enough though. I actually start to feel sorry for decent women when I think of some of the de balled manginas they have to deal with. I remember a particular debate I had with a doctrinaire feminist about abortion. Fun times! It was one of those instances I look back on that reveals the power of Game though. My “alpha” behavior in that instance made her attraction for me grow.

      One of my greatest concerns is men being viewed as whiners, haters or babies. It ain’t fair. It’s reality though. With the help of Game, and better communication in general, I think that problem can be mitigated to some extent.

      I do think a bit of change is possible. The pendulum has swung to far in one direction and men, who in times past, wouldn’t have noticed, are waking up. Maybe typical female shaming language will lose some of its luster in the coming years.

      I’m glad you are remarried and preaching the gospel with your website and blog comments. Your very astute, and your observations and personal accounts can and have (like me) help others.

  6. Interesting thoughts GG

    I appreciate the feedback. A few thoughts of my own…

    I’m not sure about your statistics, and to the extent I would comment, I don’t think they are even as high as you make them. To be honest, I’m not really worried about alpha cads or gold diggers and sluts. I even think their are decent men and women that engage in destructive, unethical or immoral behavior. Flawed, but not unsalvagable. Within reason of course.

    I am most concerned with two things…

    1. men/society understanding and confronting the dark parts of female nature. ( i leave out the dark parts of male nature of course, because I feel it is well known and addressed ad nauseam in the larger culture.)

    2. Getting the thumb of the government off of the scales of justice. A leveling of the playing field on issues like divorce, child custody/ support, alimony and false rape allegations.

    Women( and men), yes, even decent women, when tempted to take the path of least resistance, will do so. I don’t see social shaming coming back but i’d settle for a woman having to bear the full brunt of her short sighted decisions. No more subsidies for poor personal choices.

    I agree that most women wouldn’t self identify with feminism but that doesn’t mean they don’t embrace some of its ideas. I call this buffet feminism. Pick the tenets you feel comfortable accepting and leave the rest alone.

    “Game represents a step in the right direction for men because it’s probably the only movement in history that got men thinking about social skills.”

    I think this is an excellent point. Men in the past, didn’t need these new “features” in order to attract a mate. Whether you view that as good or bad is immaterial but now, more than ever, Game is needed to attract, and keep a woman attracted. Many more distractions now than ever before to potentially derail a relationship. I also have no problem with women seeing the benefits of Game and encouraging men to use it.

    I admit that I tend to be much closer to the pessimistic than the optimistic in regard to substantial change in laws and regulations. I’m mostly in this to affect change in individual men. The more that men, like Dave in Hawaii says, take the red pill, the better in my opinion.

    I agree that fringe elements of MRA or PUA aren’t helpful and can be counter productive. I have no problem calling out or discussing over the top and mysogynistic to the max ideas. However, I am also aware that any movement, especially one that starts from a pretty marginal position, is going to have its freaks and crazies. To the ladies at femalesfisting, I am a fringe, woman hating wacko. I’m pretty careful when I throw that around myself.

    I want to reiterate though that I believe their to be plenty of good women out there. Many are victimized by the cultural changes just as much as the men are. I have women in my personal life, and in the culture that I admire greatly. To quote Michael Corleone, This isn’t personal, only business.

    As far as this website goes, I feel it is my duty to call out poor female behavior when I see it, and in doing so illuminate the dark parts of female nature. Some women are better at constraining that nature than others.

    Men also vary in their ability to constrain their own natures. However, society, in my view, is much more disapproving of poor male behavior as opposed to female behavior. Most people are unable to even single out any sort of poor behavior that disproportionately affect women.

    I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from. Thanks for posting here and I look forward to more of your insights.

    • GG

      “I’m not sure about your statistics, and to the extent I would comment, I don’t think they are even as high as you make them.”

      Here’s the thing: most of the guys on these blogs would say that they are even higher — check out the latest entries on Novaseeker’s last thread on cheating. There’s a lot of negativity centering around extremes that’s getting reinforced in the MRAsphere, stuff that comes nowhere near the realities of what most women are like.

      Aside from gross estimates of how promscuious and unfaithful women are, take for example, the recent thread at Novaseeker about how hypergamous women are — there were guys thinking that women with BAs would never marry men without degrees, even though statistically more than half of them do!

      Women are more likely to get off the hook for things that they shouldn’t, and I agree that more changes definitely are needed to protect men from false allegations against things like rape, sexual harrassment, as well as paternity fraud. Unfortunately, the darker aspects of PUA/game (and perhaps some aspects of MRA) can reinforce those problems, and inadvertently help feminism’s men-behaving-badly squad justify its own existence.

      • GG welcome back,
        Let me begin by responding to you on a good note….
        “Women are more likely to get off the hook for things that they shouldn’t, and I agree that more changes definitely are needed to protect men from false allegations against things like rape, sexual harassment, as well as paternity fraud. Unfortunately, the darker aspects of PUA/game (and perhaps some aspects of MRA) can reinforce those problems, and inadvertently help feminism’s men-behaving-badly squad justify its own existence.”

        Bravo. The fact that you acknowledge the problem of false accusation and paternity fraud puts you miles ahead of alot of women. Appreciate it.

        You seem to have a real problem with Nova. Am I missing something? I find Nova to be one of the most reasonable men blogging on these issues.

        I happen to largely agree with him with regard to infidelity as well. My point is, just because a woman (or a man) cheats doesnt necessarily make her indecent.
        Possibly just a flawed person that gave in to temptation. Women, like men, have parts of their nature that need constraining. Since societal shaming is probably off the table, I want a woman (or a man) to face the consequences of her infidelity. Again, nothing personal, only business.

        Some peoples lives are filled with more temptation than others. I don’t condone cheating, but am I supposed to automatically say that the person with lots of temptations and cheats, is automatically more indecent than someone who lives on a farm and sees 3 other people a week and doesnt?

        Of course their are plenty of others, that are cheating, lying, conniving whores (or cads). I don’t know the exact break down though. The way our society is, it doesn’t surprise me in the least that we see more females cheating than ever before. I don’t even say this to rag on women. Just an obvious consequence that stems from the disinclination to shame and talk about dark aspects of female nature along with changing incentives. I try to just be clinical about it.

        As for hypergamy, regardless of your feelings for Nova, there are statistics that back up the notion. The fact is, most women marry above their own earning levels. I believe Bill Gates’ wife went farther in college than he did, but to say hypergamy wasn’t in play would be silly. Thats an extreme example but useful in debunking your statistic if it is true.

        I also will say that its not all about earning levels anymore either. There are plenty of other ways for a man to stick out from the crowd and fly his alpha flag. Its still hypergamy though. Women are just finding new ways to evaluate a mans worth in comparison to all of the others.

        Hope that helps.

  7. Mr.M

    “No longer are MRAs just a bunch of divorced bitter guys. The truths that we bitched about 7 years ago have gone mainstream.”

    I’ll attest to this… I’m 27, never married/divorced, no kids, grew up primarily in hawaii (liberal state), single mother household (father disappeared when I was 2, didn’t pay child support), never really had issues with women attention, the only exception is I had a rough time at my first job, but I don’t think men/female relations was at the core of it.

    I grew up valuing equality and fairness the highest. Heh, saying that I guess its a no-brainer that my entire life I’ve noticed various things between the genders were not equal. I should state here, I’ve ALWAYS felt women had it just as good/bad as men, so that everything women had was equal (and later I would realize, better).

    Then it was just inklings…from everywhere. Parties, clubs, lines, news, sitcoms/TV/commercials (shit, I don’t even watch TV anymore), movies, work environments (I cannot believe people still think wage discrimination based on gender exists), personal/professional interactions (I’ve been sexually harassed but did not report since…well, that doesn’t exist for men), thoughts about the institution of marriage (how its conducted), divorce rates, seeing my own female friends go from awkward college girl to overbearing/overconfident to the point of serious fault just because they were single and hitting the bar scene (ie: excess male attention creates false self confidence). I mean, it was everything. Anything.

    What caused me to search MRA? I think it was a culmination of the experiences I’ve had in life up until that point. If any young male takes the time to step back from the daily grind in life, he will take note of all of this.

    My opinion is, the two largest sectors of men that will never notice/care about MRA are liberal, feminist, and closed minded men and those who over indulge in video games. I think the latter is a huge epidemic, as video games are an easy escape mechanism for boys/men and is a widely accepted in our society.

    • Mr.M

      I want to add, that the more I asked questions about my life surrounding me (as I think most people do as they get older), whether verbally or introspective, the more I realized how bad men have it.

      For instance, I recently asked my mother about my aunty’s marriage/divorce. My uncle was a quiet man, good intentioned, worked hard, soft spoken, and as far as I can tell did what was asked of him. Growing up, I never thought ill of him, just figured he was quiet and kept to himself. I come to find out that my aunty physically/verbally/emotionally abused him throughout their marriage, AND financially abused him AFTER the divorce, demanding he help support their then 20 y/o+ daughter up until the point where he refused to support the now 30 y/o daughter. She quickly cut him out of her life at that point.

      • Hey Mr.M,
        I think your experiences go to show that more and more, we will be seeing a broad spectrum of men finding these sites.

        I can relate completely to all of your examples, and it is those trivial occurences of female privilege that have become ubiquitous in our society, and make it impossible for anyone even marginally paying attention to ignore.

        Interesting point about the gamers. I read recently that the average age of video game players has crept up to 35.

      • What Mr. M writes is what I’m referring to.

        Many many young men are coming around to MRA, either through old bitter divorced guys like me bitching about the System, or through Game, or by satisfying a vague unease about the dissonance between the equality that is preached and the realities of a steep inequality bordering on serfdom.

        Now what those men do about their awareness of MRA is another matter. Some will withdraw into the marriage strike. Some will Game and get all the tail they can. Others will withdraw from a seemingly hopeless situation. And a small minority will write about it and consciousness-raise (to borrow a left-wing term).

  8. Gaming is indeed an issue. It’s understandable in a way because it is one of the few refuges left for men. But it is too escapist when taken to an extreme, and leads to apathy about issues that men could use to improve themselves and do other things that interest them more than gaming.

    • Ew,
      I’m sure you know it, but i’ll clarify anyway. I use “bitter” from the perspective of feminists. I don’t want to give the impression that I think men who have been burned, and find mra, are all bitter whiners. I think you know where I am coming from, but I’ll say it anyway for someone else who might be reading. In any event, bitterness is often justified anyway.

      Nova,
      Yeah, I have mixed feelings on gaming. I have partaken in it and still enjoy it from time to time. It certainly is an escape. I spose a healthy one in moderation. However, I learned it can be a time suck and life could pass me by if I wasn’t careful.

  9. The blog fails to mention India where Mens Rights is rising at a very rapid speed. It has shamed the highest office of the judiciary and made them appear as corrupt.

    Mens Rights has opened a womens wing in India , the mothers in law forum. Sooner or later, within next 15 years, mens Rights movement across the infinite towns of India will have a major hand to choose the next prime minister of India.

    This is despite the money pouered by USAID, UN, VAWA and US governments into india. Mens Rights in india has no match. Feminism will be finished in india.

  10. Pingback: Classic Links and Bonus Coverage « Ganttsquarry's Blog

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s